In an interview with Sunday's Zaman, ISRO/USAK Chairman Professor Sedat Laçiner, commented on recent developments, with particular reference to the apology campaign launched by a group of Turkish intellectuals and said no apology was needed on the matter. He explained his viewpoint on the entire Armenian issue to Sunday's Zaman. You described this initiative as sabotage of the gradually improving relations between Turkey and Armenia. Isn't this an exaggeration?
My statement was not exactly like that; but I should note that I did not like this campaign. First, there is a problem regarding the timing. If this were initiated last year in an attempt to force both societies to take some action, maybe we would not have this problem right now. But currently there is no need for this. At a time when there is rapprochement between the two societies, this campaign prepared the ground on which people like Canan Arıtman and radical groups will raise their voices. The Dashnaks [an Armenian ultranationalist group] on the Armenian side now say, "Well, why do you need a dialogue process now? These guys have just come to your terms; they are about to admit their fault. Just be patient for a few years; Obama also took office; you should consider this, as well." The Dashnaks were opposed to dialogue; they were isolated. You should also note that [Armenian President Serzh] Sarksyan is also a radical; but he has come to this point: "If we fail to have an agreement with the Turks, we can't ensure Armenia's survival." They inevitably have to maintain good ties with Turkey.
For economic reasons?
Both economic and political. Armenia is a landlocked country bordering Turkey. They do not have good relations with Iran, Azerbaijan, Turkey or Georgia. Russia is unable to fulfill their expectations. The opening of the border gate with Turkey is important because it is like the trachea. For this reason, they have to have good relations with Turkey even if they don't want to. They did not change their views with respect to the genocide claims; the intention and goal of this campaign should be clarified. The signatories include names who hold views endorsed by the Dashnaks.
Are you implying that they have been manipulated?
Maybe. Because the issue is about to lose its status as a taboo, every step is being discussed extensively. They should have known that there would be such a strong reaction. If they apologize for the sufferings of the Armenians without mentioning the pains of the Turks, I would have difficulty believing that they are really intellectuals. Second, the state should have acted smartly on this issue. There was no need for the prime minister's counterstatement. This is not a situation where the General Staff needs to make a statement. It is not a scientific board; it is not a party to the Armenian problem. It is not the supreme body that represents the state. Its statement did not contribute to the ongoing discussion. Both parties need to empathize. We are talking about over 1 million Muslims killed during the same period. Some of these people were tortured to death by Armenians.
There have been some allegations suggesting that Armenians assaulted Muslims only after the events in 1915, implying that there were no such offenses committed by Armenians before the deportations.
Such serious ignorance is possible only if you study a lot, because the Armenian events started in the second half of the 19th century. The 1915 events are the final scenes of the movie. You cannot possibly understand the whole story by taking a look at the final scene, nor can you offer an apology based on this. An edition of The New York Times from 1895 talks about 200,000 heavily armed Armenians taking action against the state. The movement had already developed aspirations for independence.
Is not it possible that the larger Armenian community still remained unarmed?
Of course; but if you consider this figure with their children and relatives added, you will conclude that there was a wholesale insurgency and that a substantial part of Armenian society was armed. While this war was fought, Muslim communities, including Turks and Kurds, suffered a lot. In some places blood feuds erupted between Kurds and Armenians.
Is there nothing positive about this campaign?
There is something in such campaigns that makes me happy. Turkey is not the most democratic country in the world, but we have started to become one because of the Armenian issue. I mean you cannot start a similar campaign in Armenia. A Turk cannot do research in historical archives in Armenia. And it isn't just Armenia; if you go to Switzerland and you are asked, "What do you think about the Armenian genocide?" and if you reply that you do not think there was such a crime in the past, you will be prosecuted and convicted in court. This is also the case in France. You can lose your job if you deny the genocide claims in the US. There is only one country in the world where the Armenian issue can be discussed and that is Turkey. This pleases me.
How has Turkey apologized?
There were serious human rights violations during the deportations committed by Turkish security forces. If you displace more than 800,000 people from their homes and take them to a distant place, they will liquidate their assets; they will take the money. Imagine that they travel on foot. Most of them are carrying valuable jewelry. The state assigned two guards per 1,000 people. These guards had primitive weapons. In the end, people faced assaults.
What was the İstanbul government doing during this period?
Even during the deportation process the government in İstanbul seriously considered criticism. It took effective action against even relatively insignificant violations. It demanded the necessary punishment for offenses committed during this period. Courts were set up to prosecute the offenders. More than 1,000 suspects -- about 500 were police officers, military officers and members of secret services -- were effectively prosecuted. Sixty-seven of them were executed. These included high-level military officers and district administrators removed from office.
What was the number of defendants executed in the Nuremberg trials?
The number of execution verdicts at the trials set up in the aftermath of the Holocaust was 12. Let us assume there was a genocide committed by Turks. A court was set up to prosecute the offenders; 67 people were executed based on the rulings issued by this court. We also know that a number of other defendants were given other sentences, including exile. In addition, the trials were further extended in 1919 because of pressure by the British. A war court was set up to deal with this matter. This court ruled for the execution of two governors and one district governor; these three people were apprehended. I give this example because these were important figures. Many others were arrested, including the gendarmerie commander of Yozgat. The former Diyarbakır governor fled. He was surrounded in Beşiktaş. He killed himself when he realized that he would get caught. During the reign of the cabinet of Damat Ferit Paşa, the district governor of Boğazlıyan was executed based on false evidence and unsubstantiated allegations.
An Armenian general is needed in the Turkish army
So efforts of the Ottoman Empire did not satisfy Armenian demands…
I should note that almost every member of the cabinet that made the deportation decision, including the foreign minister and the interior minister, were assassinated in Berlin, Georgia and other places in 1921 and 1922. So who was left to execute? What has been left to apologize for? And ASALA [the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia] resorted to terror attacks for the same reason in the 1970s and 1980s. My grandfather was not involved in such actions -- I should note that his father was killed by the security forces, just like the Armenians killed during the deportations -- how could I apologize for the alleged genocide? The İstanbul government admitted its faults and took action to punish the offenses. It even took excessive measures to deal with human rights violations. We know that a private who stole the watch of an Armenian was summarily executed. What has been left behind?
But they say they do not have territorial aspirations.
Armenian authorities do not openly declare that they recognize Turkey's borders. I ask them why they avoid such recognition. They tell me if they do so, they will have made a compromise. What will you give in return in the negotiations? You do not expect anything from your neighbor in return for recognizing its borders. In return, your neighbor also recognizes your borders. If you do not recognize your neighbor's home, this is a justification and reason for war.
Will demands for material reparations and indemnities be voiced by the Armenians?
Reparations for damages will be demanded even before territorial claims. They are already studying this matter. The AXA insurance company makes payments to the descendants of Armenians who died during deportation, alleging that they were subjected to genocide. For instance, the total amount of reparations paid by Germany to Israel because of the Holocaust was about $100 billion. If you consider the rate of inflation, this becomes a huge figure, approaching $1 trillion.
Is it obvious that Turkey will not pay this amount?
Not that obvious. Why shouldn't you pay this amount? If this is a crime and you admit that you actually committed it, you have to. Do you avoid payment of the reparations when the EU or the European Court of Human Rights rules for such a payment?
How many Armenians did Turks rescue during the deportations?
A substantial part of the male deportees were militants. There were many incidents where their relatives and families did have difficult times. Men were primarily targeted during the attacks. Children and the elderly had to suffer the consequences. Local people took action to keep the orphans or the widows with them. This is an Islamic tradition. This is an Ottoman tradition. Westerners cannot understand this. In some cases, the guy just wanted a beautiful Armenian girl whose husband died. Some marriages were built based on this motive.
Isn't this assimilation, even if it is done out of humanitarian concerns?
If you ask this to Western people, this is genocide, because you are trying to assimilate the Armenian population. However, Serbs raped about 30,000 women during the civil war in Bosnia and Herzegovina but did not marry any of these victims. And they did not accept the children as their own. But there is something different here. These people did not see the Armenians as dirty and inferior. They made these women their wives. They had kids. They took these kids as their own and embraced these women as their wives.
But they converted them to Islam…
In that case, you accept your husband's religion as your religion. But this Islamization is something like this: There were many Armenian women who did not actually perform their religious duties, though they looked pretty religious. There were some others who did not have much information about Islam. They believed in God. The Armenian people were not atheists. These marriages took place at early ages. And they died as Muslims. There are many Armenian converts that fall into this category.
Is there any research on this subject?
Yes, there is. There are memoirs by the adopted Armenians. There are a few journalistic accounts on this matter. Scholarly research is about to proliferate, however. I do not know the exact number. The husbands did not admit their wives were Armenian. These people got old; they are dying. This era is about to be over. And then there is this issue of the adoptees; there are many orphans because their parents died. Kazım Karabekir Paşa devoted tireless efforts. In addition, old couples took in these orphans. You can hear these stories in every town. We know that a substantial number of them were Armenians. For instance, in some places people have names like Ahmet or Mehmet, but they are called "Unbeliever Ahmet" or "Unbeliever Mehmet" because they are known as Armenians. There are people who never observed daily prayers and who looked Muslim even though they never practiced Islam in their personal lives. But, of course, there are real Muslims, as well.
And there are Armenians who are disconnected with their original identity and now consider themselves to be Turks and Muslims?
Yes, there are. There is no need to speculate about their lives, however. There are thousands of such people. We have a whole different group: This group was deliberately kept out of the deportation schedule in the East and Southeast. About 350,000 Armenians returned after the deportation. Among those who were concerned for their lives, some announced they had converted to Islam. The village where they lived was all Muslim, but they did not quite observe the religious rituals. They did not have mosques. In some cases they built mosques to prove their Islamic identity. But their worship was not like the regular kind performed by Sunnis. Most of them asserted that they were Alevi Muslim. Some of them totally changed their registration records in an attempt to hide their Armenian identity. I mean, when they moved to İzmir or İstanbul, they first took their record to Rize and then Afyon. There are people who changed their registration records seven or eight times. Normally when Turkish people change their cities or residences, they keep their registration logs. And amongst such people, some Armenians moved up to high-level official positions.
Unfortunately, the republican regime did not have a good record on this matter…
Yes, you are right. Actually, there were Armenian deputies in Parliament in the 1950s. Of course, there is also now a population problem. If you nominate an Armenian candidate, where will he get elected? But the state needs to do this: For instance, there should be an Armenian general. That's what Western societies do. They pick a black person, a woman or a member of a disadvantaged group. For instance, there are many Turkish police officers in Germany. They also appoint one of them as a supervisor. This will serve as a message to the community. … There should be an Armenian general in Turkey.
But you are talking about having a general in the army. Isn't there a thorough procedure during admission into military schools in which the past and identity of the candidates are investigated?
Yes, you are right. There is a background search, and I am fine with that. You should pick somebody just because he is Armenian. You make him a general because he is an Armenian; not because of his talents. The same should be done with respect to women; there should be a female general. We need such symbolic messages.
