During your term in office, there has been a big change in the attitude of the Swedish government toward Turkey’s EU accession, from negative to positive. What triggered this change?I think you can read it the other way around. There was a big change in Turkey, which has changed the Swedish attitude in return. I think there was a misunderstanding in Turkey about our stance. While Sweden was criticizing Turkey for the human rights situation, particularly in the Southeast, it was not some kind of support for Kurdish separatism [outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK)], it was what we wanted Turkey to do ... something that could make Turkey come onto the road of the EU. Here many people were skeptical when we came. They said: ‘We misunderstood Sweden. We thought you criticized us because you wanted Turkey to stay out of Europe. Now we realized you criticized us because you wanted us in Europe.’
How do you define this change in the long and the short term? What is the exact term to define this change in Turkey? And where is Turkey moving?
There are a lot of problems and obstacles, but Turkey is on the right path. I think the main problem in Turkey as most people in Europe see it is the lack of a constructive opposition. That is the main problem. Careful countries need a stone-like opposition that is working for the best of the country, not for the small interests of the party. I think that is the biggest problem in Turkey.
What about social democracy in Turkey?
All Swedish parties are in contact with Turkey’s ruling Justice and Development Party [AK Party]. So it is no secret that social democrats in Sweden are very very critical of Deniz Baykal’s party in the Socialist International.
What is the problem with Turkey’s left?
Problems in party structure, party organization which makes it too difficult to change the leader and lack of reform. The party organization system has to be reformed.
Do you see any danger to secularism in Turkey?
If a party in Turkey would go to elections with an agenda that they would like to Islamize the country, they would never cross the 10 percent [threshold]. Many people who define themselves as European liberals and social democrats support the AK Party because they can’t see any other alternative. I think it is not too hard to say that destructive fundamentalism in Turkey is secular fundamentalism. We have arranged scholarship programs for students. Some 200 Turkish students have attended Swedish universities. Some of them have been girls wearing headscarves. They could do that at Swedish universities, and it was not seen as a threat to the Swedish secular system.
What do you think is the main obstacle before Turkey’s democratization?
One is the situation in the Southeast and the prohibition of parties that want to pursue the interests of the Kurdish population. Even some retired generals said this policy was a mistake. The PKK has been given the role of the only spokesman for the Kurdish people. Kurds were left with no other choice because their parties have been forbidden.
What are other obstacles?
You need to look at your Constitution and the role of the military. They have to be reformed to have the same position as in other democracies.
So, you suggest the writing of a new constitution for Turkey?
You already had a good draft proposed by [constitutional expert] Ergun Özbudun that you need. The Constitutional Court should only intervene when legislation is not adopted according to law. At the same time, in the first paragraph of the Constitution it says Turkey is a secular state. This contradiction cannot stay. Everybody should be entitled to think and believe the way they want. We had a situation like this in the early 19th century. There was a big emigration to the US in the 1850-60s. It was because of the poor economic situation, starvation, but also because of the fact that many Swedes felt the state was imposing on them a certain kind of religion.
Do you think Turkey will be granted EU membership despite opposition from some countries?
If Turkey continues with the reform process, there is no way to keep Turkey out. I think opinion in Europe will change eventually.
Analysis by Samuel Huntington and Francis Fukuyama defines Western culture as a Judeo-Christian culture. Your analysis challenges this idea.
There is a clash of civilizations. But not between civilizations, but within them, within Christianity and within Islam. Among Christians and Muslims there are those with a modern, positive outlook and there are others who read texts and try to go backward. There is the clash.
Do you think there is a clash in Turkish society?
Turkish society is changing. A new class is coming up, a new middle class is emerging. Of course this class wants to have its say in politics and not let politics be made by some clans in Istanbul. That is what is happening. So I think that Turkey is undergoing a sociological change. It is becoming perhaps more democratic but also perhaps a bit more social conservative.
Do you think this change can be stopped?
This trend will continue. If politicians like Baykal want to stay in power in the long run, they have to find themselves new people. If Baykal wants to win elections, he has to find himself new people because economic and social trends in society are not favoring his way of making politics.
To move on from politics a little bit, could you tell us a little bit about your activities here?
The Swedish government in the year 2000 made a very stupid decision and decided to close the consulate general in Istanbul to save money. They looked at a world map and saw two missions in Turkey. Let’s close İstanbul, they said. The consulate in İstanbul is the oldest Swedish state property abroad. It has been active since 1757. There was enormous uproar in Sweden and Turkey from all circles of society. Then, the government had to change the decision and decided to keep the consulate. Not only keep it but also expand its activities. It was then decided to start a new institution. The name was Istanbul: The Center for Turkish-Swedish Cooperation. An agreement was made between then-Prime Minister Bülent Ecevit and Prime Minister Göran Perrson during the Swedish summit in summer 2001. I came here to have two titles. One is consul general. One is director of this new institute. But then when we wanted to start to work with this new institute the then-Turkish government created some problems concerning our status. So this institute never came into being. But we make it live as a section within the consulate general. I am consul general 5 percent of my time. In the rest of my time, I am a director of a nonexistent institute. We have the task of promoting Turkish accession to the EU by different contacts, seminars, etc., but also of working with Westerners concerning the Caucasus, the Balkans and the Middle East. So we have a broad agenda.
What about leisure time activities?
Although İstanbul is such a big town, you can easily get out. We often go to Belgrade Forest. I walk. I play golf at Kemer Country. I used to spend weekends playing golf. We have many seminars about Turkey and EU relations. Last time we had one in Çorlu, Amasya. We have been to 30 cities, from Artvin to Antakya. It has been quite a nice experience. I think I have introduced my Turkish friends to their own country. We have a seminar in Edirne. Journalist Şahin Alpay was also there. It was my 11th visit to Edirne, but it was the Turkish academic’s first visit.
What would you say about Turkish people’s worst and best features?
Hospitality, friendliness, openness would be the best features, while I would point out heavy smoking as the worst.
What is the first impression of Swedes visiting Turkey?
When Swedes come here for the first time, they are shocked. They do not expect a Turkey that is so modern. I always try to make Swedish visitors to go to Kayseri, Konya, Malatya and İzmir to see the dynamism, not only Istanbul, but all over the country.
Which Turkish soccer team do you support?
I always support the underdog. I was supporting Kasımpaşa. But my support helped little Kasımpaşa. Of course, now I should support Galatasaray because of [Swedish football player] Tobias Linderoth there. Before I was supporting Fenerbahçe. Kennet Andersson played there.
